Legislature(1997 - 1998)
09/30/1997 09:05 AM House HES
| Audio | Topic |
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE HEALTH, EDUCATION AND SOCIAL
SERVICES STANDING COMMITTEE
September 30, 1997
9:05 a.m.
Anchorage, Alaska
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Con Bunde, Chairman
Representative J. Allen Kemplen
Representative Tom Brice (via teleconference)
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Joe Green, Vice Chairman
Representative Al Vezey
Representative Brian Porter
Representative Fred Dyson
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
SPONSOR SUBSTITUTE FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 148
"An Act relating to the public school funding program; relating to
the definition of a school district, to the transportation of
students, to school district layoff plans, to the special education
service agency, to the child care grant program, and to compulsory
attendance in public schools; and providing for an effective date."
- HEARD AND HELD
MEDICAID REGULATIONS REGARDING FRAUD
(* First public hearing)
PREVIOUS ACTION
BILL: HB 148
SHORT TITLE: SCHOOL FUNDING ETC./ CHILD CARE GRANTS
SPONSOR(S): HEALTH, EDUCATION & SOCIAL SERVICES
JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION
02/18/97 382 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
02/18/97 382 (H) HES, FINANCE
04/04/97 988 (H) SPONSOR SUBSTITUTE INTRODUCED-
REFERRALS
04/04/97 988 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
04/04/97 989 (H) HES, FINANCE
04/08/97 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106
04/08/97 (H) MINUTE(HES)
04/24/97 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106
04/24/97 (H) MINUTE(HES)
04/28/97 (H) HES AT 3:30 PM CAPITOL 106
04/28/97 (H) MINUTE(HES)
04/30/97 (H) HES AT 3:30 PM CAPITOL 106
04/30/97 (H) MINUTE(HES)
08/25/97 (H) HES AT 10:00 AM CAPITOL 205
08/25/97 (H) MINUTE(HES)
09/30/97 (H) HES AT 9:00 AM ANCHORAGE LIO
WITNESS REGISTER
JEFF LIPSCOMB
9921 Main Tree Drive
Anchorage, Alaska 99516
(No telephone number provided)
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on SSHB 148.
CHERYL BREAGER
11940 Kristie Circle
Anchorage, Alaska 99516
Telephone: (907) 345-7916
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on SSHB 148.
JENNY ORTON, Teacher
Huffman Elementary School
12910 Admiralty Place
Anchorage, Alaska 99515
Telephone: (907) 345-3707
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on SSHB 148.
JULIE JENSEN (ph) ZARR
(No address provided)
Telephone: (907) 345-2212
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on SSHB 148.
EDDY JEANS, Manager
School Finance Section
Education Support Services
Department of Education
801 West 10th Street, Suite 200
Juneau, Alaska 99801-1894
Telephone: (907) 465-2891
POSITION STATEMENT: Answered questions regarding SSHB 148.
JOE LIBAL, Teacher
4923 Rollins Drive
Anchorage, Alaska 99508
Telephone: (907) 345-3707
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on SSHB 148.
HARRIET DRUMMOND, Vice President
Anchorage School Board
2139 Hillcrest Place
Anchorage, Alaska 99503
Telephone: (907) 279-7722
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on SSHB 148.
JOHN CYR, President
National Education Association-Alaska
114 Second Street
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 586-3090
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on SSHB 148.
LELAND DISHMAN, Superintendent of Schools
North Slope Borough
P.O. Box 69
Barrow, Alaska 99723
Telephone: (907) 852-2611
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on SSHB 148.
MARIE CARROLL, Chief of Staff
North Slope Borough
P.O. Box 69
Barrow, Alaska 99723
Telephone: (907) 852-2611
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on SSHB 148.
ASHLEY REED
360 West Benson, Number 200
Anchorage, Alaska 99503
Telephone: (907) 562-2560
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on SSHB 148.
KATHI GILLESPIE, Legislative Chairman
Anchorage School Board
2741 Seafarer Loop
Anchorage, Alaska 99516
Telephone: (907) 345-5335
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on SSHB 148.
KAREN KULIN
10841 Glazanof Drive
Anchorage, Alaska 99516
Telephone: (907) 346-1372
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on SSHB 148.
ROBERT GOTTSTEIN
630 West Fourth Avenue, Suite 300
Anchorage, Alaska 99501
(No telephone number provided)
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on SSHB 148.
BOB LABBE, Director
Division of Medical Assistance
Department of Health and Social Services
P.O. Box 110660
Juneau, Alaska 99811-0660
Telephone: (907) 465-3355
POSITION STATEMENT: Participated in discussion of Medicaid
regulations regarding fraud.
NANCY WELLER, Medical Assistance Administrator
Division of Medical Assistance
Department of Health and Social Services
P.O. Box 110660
Juneau, Alaska 99811-0660
Telephone: (907) 465-5825
POSITION STATEMENT: Participated in discussion of Medicaid
regulations regarding fraud.
P.K. WILSON, Medical Assistance Administrator
Division of Medical Assistance
Department of Health and Social Services
4411 Business Park Boulevard, Suite 46
Anchorage, Alaska 99503-7117
Telephone: (907) 273-3221
POSITION STATEMENT: Participated in discussion of Medicaid
regulations regarding fraud.
CAROLYN PHILLIPS
161 Karen Street, Number 3
Soldotna, Alaska 99669
Telephone: (907) 262-9531
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on health care issues.
DORIS REYNOLDS
111 Birch Drive
Kenai, Alaska 99611
Telephone: (907) 283-3203
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on health care issues.
JIM JORDAN, Executive Director
Alaska State Medical Association
4107 Laurel Street
Anchorage, Alaska 99508
Telephone: (907) 562-2662
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on Medicaid regulations.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 97-45, SIDE A
Number 001
CHAIRMAN CON BUNDE called the House Health, Education and Social
Services Standing Committee meeting to order at 9:05 a.m. at the
Anchorage Legislative Information Office (LIO). Members present at
the call to order were Representatives Bunde and Kemplen;
Representative Brice was present via teleconference from Fairbanks.
SSHB 148: SCHOOL FUNDING ETC./ CHILD CARE GRANTS
CHAIRMAN BUNDE brought before the committee Sponsor Substitute for
House Bill No. 148, "An Act relating to the public school funding
program; relating to the definition of a school district, to the
transportation of students, to school district layoff plans, to the
special education service agency, to the child care grant program,
and to compulsory attendance in public schools; and providing for
an effective date."
[The first 1.7 minutes of tape 97-45 are blank.]
CHAIRMAN BUNDE advised members that the discussion of local
contribution is found on page 3, line 10. Special needs funding is
found on page 3, line 25. Minimum size for schools is found on
page 5, line 1. How and when students will be counted will be a
change from the fall counting; Chairman Bunde said it adds
February. And the hold harmless provisions are found on page 26,
line 27.
CHAIRMAN BUNDE noted that there are side-by-side comparisons. Four
proposals on the foundation formula are active at this time. In
addition to SSHB 148, there are two proposals from the Senate and
one from the Administration. While the committee would focus on
SSHB 148, Chairman Bunde encouraged input as to whether they should
mix and match these proposals.
Number 040
JEFF LIPSCOMB came forward to testify, representing himself and
other parents of the South Anchorage area regarding what Alaskans
hold dear: equal distributions from the permanent fund and an
equitable level of education opportunity. Mr. Lipscomb suggested
SSHB 148 needs to include a provision for the state's foundation
formula that requires school districts to budget schools on a per-
student basis. He reminded members that the 1960s civil rights
movement required federal intervention to ensure equal education
opportunities in the South. In addition, Title 9, a federal act,
was required many years ago to ensure equal education opportunities
for women.
MR. LIPSCOMB pointed out that in the Anchorage School District, the
largest district in the state, average expenditures per student
have increased. While he had no figures for 1997, the proposed
budget provided approximately $7,200 per student. However, amounts
spent in the high schools for instruction are decreasing. Mr.
Lipscomb cited variations: Bartlett High School received almost
$3,900 per student, while Service High School, the largest of the
district's high schools, received $3,300 per student.
MR. LIPSCOMB said according to Mr. Cristal, the foundation formula
includes reimbursement that for the Anchorage School District
represented about $3,588 per student; for secondary students, it
represented $4,692. Mr. Lipscomb pointed out that the Department
of Education's space criteria for an elementary school is 106
square feet per student, whereas for secondary schools, it is 150
square feet. The additional reimbursement for secondary students
is to acknowledge the increased cost of a secondary program.
MR. LIPSCOMB said the average cost of the instructional program for
the elementary student in the Anchorage School District is $3,900.
According to Mr. Cristal, the average instructional cost for a
middle school student is $4,600. The district spends all its money
on primary and middle schools, and secondary schools get the least
amount of money.
MR. LIPSCOMB discussed the inequity in custodial expenses. While
Bartlett High School and West High School are physically the two
largest high schools in the district at 360,000 square feet, they
also have the smallest populations. However, Bartlett has 11
custodians, and West has 13 custodians; Service High School, with
2,300 students, has 11 custodians.
MR. LIPSCOMB asked: What happens when the largest schools in terms
of square footage have the smallest enrollments? He answered that
they have a lot of room. He restated that the Department of
Education (DOE) criteria is 150 square feet per student.
MR. LIPSCOMB advised members that the current school district
priorities are an addition to Chugiak High School and replacement
of Dimond High School. However, Service High School has the worst
overcrowding problem.
Number 095
MR. LIPSCOMB discussed library resources, noting that the large
schools with small populations have many more books available to
the students. He made a correction: The West High School library
is a combination library with Romig Junior High. If students from
both schools were added together, the number provided would come
down. As for book value at the high schools, the number for West
High School doesn't include monies for the major new addition,
which includes a new pool. Mr. Lipscomb pointed out that the
smallest populations are in the schools where the district has its
largest investments, while the school with the largest population
has the smallest size and the lowest value.
Number 112
MR. LIPSCOMB asked: Are we doing anything to correct this
situation? He answered with an example: In April, 1996, the
voters approved a $2.7 million bond to repair and replace the
tracks and tennis courts at the high schools. He explained that at
Bartlett High School, they decided to make it a bigger track so it
would be the site of a state meet. At Dimond High School, they
decided to replace the football field, in addition. At Chugiak,
because there was some extra money left over from the lower-than-
expected bid, they decided to upgrade the track to make it similar
to the Bartlett track; the justification was that since they had
such nice facilities at Chugiak, it would be a shame to waste them.
And at East High School, they added an additional tennis court so
that they could hold the "J-V jamboree." Mr. Lipscomb asked, "So,
what school had the minimum? Service High School had the minimum
tennis courts and the minimum-size track. It's hard to pull
yourself up from the bootstraps when you don't have boots."
MR. LIPSCOMB asked how this affects performance in the district,
reminding members that the district spends $3,900 per student at
the primary level. One school district goal is increasing success
at each level. He stated, "And you can see, there is a maintenance
in the reading; there's a big jump in language in the primary;
there's a jump in total mathematics in the primary; and, of course,
total battery is an increase. So, what happens in secondary, where
we spend less money than we do in primary? Test scores go down."
MR. LIPSCOMB said Service High School receives 84 percent of the
average funding for primary schools. "Everything goes down," he
commented. "As I told some people yesterday, what you really want
to be in the Anchorage School District is a sixth grader, because
that's where you peak. After sixth grade, it's downhill. You get
less money, and you get less education."
Number 147
MR. LIPSCOMB emphasized that they are spending the most money on
facilities which are already the best and biggest. He referred to
the chart titled, "History of enrollment and enrollment projections
by high school," which shows where they were December 30 of last
year. The school board unanimously voted to evaluate the
boundaries of the high schools, and they established a boundary
task force, telling this task force to level out enrollment of the
high schools. Mr. Lipscomb explained, "The school board was
concerned about the overcrowding at Service and the growth in South
Anchorage, so they wanted it leveled out. The boundary task force
did ... their duty and came out with recommendations that ranged in
the 90-to-95th percentile, while the school board, for whatever
their reasons, they modified that proposal."
MR. LIPSCOMB referred to the school board's approved plan, denoted
with a blue cross-hatch. He said, "And as you can see, there was
protection for our best and biggest high schools, and an increase
in enrollment projected back at Service High School. The yellow
shows actually where we're at, as of September 15th; and we're
essentially the same place we were last year, so there's no
protection here. And these are Anchorage School District capacity
utilizations. If you used the 150 square feet per student, for DOE
criteria, these numbers would be higher for Service and Dimond;
they would stay the same for Bartlett; they would go down at West.
The actual DOE criteria, the capacity utilization, is approximately
117 percent at Service High School. And I noticed over the weekend
we moved in our seventh portable building at Service."
Number 166
MR. LIPSCOMB stated, "We need the state to provide us protection,
to give us equal education opportunity. We're looking for revision
to the current foundation formula, to make it more fair and
equitable. We want it on a per-student basis. You'll hear a lot
of people say if the Anchorage School District has half the
students in the state, they should get half the money. But why
should Service High School only get 84 percent of the average cost
to educate a primary student, when the school district receives
incremental reimbursement from the state of over $700 per student,
acknowledging the increased costs of secondary programs?" Mr.
Lipscomb thanked the committee for consideration of adding a
provision requiring budgeting on a per-student basis.
CHAIRMAN BUNDE responded that SSHB 148 will require budgeting per
student, rather than per unit. He stated his understanding that
Mr. Lipscomb would like it to go per student, not just per district
but also per school.
MR. LIPSCOMB replied, "In the school district; that's correct."
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said within the district, as well as at the district
level.
MR. LIPSCOMB replied that the way it is now, in his perception, the
Anchorage School District doesn't carry out the intent if they're
being reimbursed by the state on a per-student basis. "And they
should be expending their money on a per-student basis, rather than
per-school," he added.
CHAIRMAN BUNDE stated, "At this time, they are not on a per-
student, they are on a per-unit basis.
MR. LIPSCOMB said that is correct.
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said while the goal of this bill is to change it to
per student, it hasn't gone so far as to describe it as "per
school, per student." He suggested the committee needs to consider
that. He noted that some people from the school district were
present but had not signed up to testify. He asked whether anyone
wished to respond to the discussion.
Number 192
CHERYL BREAGER came forward to express concern about the seven
portable units. She stated, "I have a junior that's in one that
they've tried to clean the carpet, apparently, and it stinks so
bad, they get headaches, and the teacher swears her eyes burn all
day long. And so I'm quite unhappy about that. I have had my kids
in portables before, but a stinking portable goes beyond what I can
accept."
MR. LIPSCOMB said they still have high school science classes in
portable units, when rooms exist inside buildings next to the
restrooms. He mentioned the difficulty of hauling water, in five-
gallon buckets from the men's shower, to a portable unit for a
seventh grade science class the previous year; they'd also had no
place to drain it.
Number 231
JENNY ORTON, Teacher, Huffman Elementary School, came forward to
testify, expressing concern about class sizes. She'd started the
year with 31 students, and she'd found out the Thursday before
school started that it would be a third grade/fourth grade split.
Other third grade classes there have 28 and 31 students, while
fourth grade classes have 30 and 32 students. Although literature
they'd received indicated there would be "18.2 children, as far as
the pupil/teacher ratio goes," usually in reality there is one
teacher in a classroom with 25 to 35 students at the elementary
level these days, which concerns Ms. Orton. They hope changing the
formula will provide some relief in the classroom itself.
CHAIRMAN BUNDE asked what Ms. Orton thinks about a 3/4 combination.
He suggested there is a rather big jump between third graders and
fourth graders.
Number 250
MS. ORTON agreed. In third grade, students learn many new skills.
She believes combinations work if there is a plan in place, and
many schools have combinations. She stated, "But to do it as a
stopgap measure, hoping for relief, and then you're a month into
the school year, and children are crying all over the school
because they have to leave the classroom they were first
comfortable in -- and we're kind of trying to figure out what kids
have been taught by a previous teacher, so that we're not
reteaching but so that we're not leaving holes. ... So, the
combinations I don't have a problem with, if you know ahead of
time, hopefully the spring before you start teaching in the fall,
and if there's an ongoing plan at the school. Otherwise, I think
it's just a Band-Aid."
CHAIRMAN BUNDE asked whether they were still having to pump
Huffman's holding tank weekly.
MS. ORTON said the big trucks had been outside her classroom door
quite a bit; she believes they are still pumping.
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said one "given" at this point is that the pie won't
get any bigger; he suggested it is important to shift the slices of
pie around, although it may be uncomfortable for some people. "But
all of the plans that are before us would require a minimum school
size of ten students for them to receive state funding at this
point," he added. "There's virtually no minimum. And there would
be about a half-a-dozen schools that would have to close ... under
any of these plans. And I'm certainly the last one ... that would
want to close a school. However, both economically and
educationally, it's very hard to argue for a school of four or five
students. And that money perhaps needs to be moved around where it
will impact the greatest number of people."
MS. ORTON said she thinks most teachers feel that when it comes to
any program or method of teaching, it comes down to: "Can you get
to that child during the day when they need you?" She said that
comes to numbers. She hopes that reallocating will help that in
the majority of schools.
CHAIRMAN BUNDE asked Ms. Orton to comment on the idea of money
being allocated not only per student but also per school.
MS. ORTON indicated the current situation rings unfair. She said
she'd want more information. This is the first she'd really become
aware of the disparity in how the money is spent between the
different schools. "But it's something that I think should
certainly be considered," she added.
Number 290
REPRESENTATIVE J. ALLEN KEMPLEN referred to comments about
reimbursing school districts on a per-student basis. Since
becoming a legislator, he continues to be amazed just how big and
diverse the state is. He pointed out the dramatic differences
between Southeast Alaska and the North Slope, and he suggested that
when moving from a temperate zone to an arctic climate, there are
significant costs incurred with the change in environment. He said
he is still trying to figure out how best to accommodate those
additional costs from that shift, and he acknowledged that more
money is certainly needed in education and to reduce school sizes.
REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN mentioned comments he'd heard regarding
"tele-education," particularly for college and high school
students. He said he doesn't know how that applies for an
elementary school, but the advances in telecommunications
technology are very impressive. He next referred to an article in
the Anchorage Daily News by Ron Duncan, president of GCI, which
explained the investment that corporation is making in Alaska,
hundreds of millions of dollars, to provide almost instantaneous
video-conferencing abilities.
REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN pointed out that such technology will allow
a teacher to interact with students without being physically
present. For example, a teacher at a central site could be going
over a lesson plan and video-conferencing to a number of remote
sites. The teacher could see a visual image of the children and
what they are doing, while the children could see a video image of
the teacher. Representative Kemplen asked Ms. Orton's opinion on
how effective the application of that could be.
Number 350
MS. ORTON said as a former college student, that would be an
effective way for her to learn. However, on an elementary level,
the key word is "remote." They are now asked to teach social
skills, human growth and development, to motivate the children as
well as to facilitate their learning. She doesn't believe that can
be done in a remote way. Ms. Orton explained, "You can give facts,
and you can have discussions. But unless the curriculum is vastly
changed, I don't think that you can teach on a non-emotional way
and be effective. I think my kids learn in my class because they
like me. ... That's part of what makes ... them want to do some of
the things that I ask them to do; they don't really like to divide
fractions." Ms. Orton concluded that while personal interaction
can be removed effectively in some situations, she'd be really
careful about the age of the children who are affected by that.
Number 372
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said research indicates the single-most important
and consistent factor in a child's learning is the teacher, not
whether the child comes from a single-parent family or a particular
background, although parental involvement and support are vital.
He stated, "And so, I think you have our support and appreciation
for taking time to testify."
CHAIRMAN BUNDE advised members he would defer to Eddy Jeans to
answer technical questions about the existing formula or the impact
of potential changes.
Number 396
JULIE JENSEN (ph) ZARR came forward to testify. A parent from
South Anchorage, she said the education funding formula in its
present form doesn't work. Although the Anchorage School District
is one of the largest in student enrollment statewide, they don't
believe they are ending up with their fair share of this funding.
She stated, "We have districts like the North Slope Borough, the
richest borough statewide, paying zero into the state education
fund, yet they're receiving funding in their schools. We have
school districts around our state with millions of dollars in
operating funding and few students attending these schools. We
have villages and cities all over the state that do not pay
property tax, yet our monies pay for their schools. The education
funding formula might not need to be increased as much as it needs
to be rewritten."
MS. ZARR advised members that this year, as in years past, schools
in the district had to beg for more teachers. Some schools had
elementary levels of 30-plus children, while high school numbers
are far more staggering: 46 in a calculus class and 60-plus in gym
classes. They see an increase in learning and behavioral problems,
in part because the children are in classes that have become too
large for teachers to handle. This leaves some students with an
average of one-half minute of personal time per teacher, per day,
to ask their questions. Ms. Zarr said they have great teachers and
students that are not realizing their full potential due to this
overcrowding. They have teachers who are doing crowd control in
their classrooms instead of teaching, and they have students who
are sitting on the floor trying to do their work because there
aren't enough seats. She asked, "When will it end?"
Number 420
MS. ZARR said as a former student in the Anchorage School District,
she is appalled by the current lack of teachers and curricular
activities. She stated, "We as parents expect our children to have
more opportunities, both academically and culturally, than were
available to us when we were in school, and to reach higher than we
thought possible. The reality is quite different. Not only are
our children not surpassing our educational goals, but every time
we turn around, something is being cut. For a state as rich as we
have become, we are educationally poor. That in itself speaks for
our future. If we do not act on this now and straighten this
problem out, we can expect this slide to continue and our children
to suffer."
MS. ZARR said she doesn't profess to know all the answers to this
problem, yet she can look at an overall picture and know a simple
solution is available, which is new rules: "You don't pay, you
don't get funding for your district."
Number 447
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said a lack of local contribution in the unorganized
boroughs is probably one of the most challenging issues in any of
the foundation formula bills, including this one. He asked Mr.
Jeans whether it is accurate that the North Slope Borough pays zero
in local contribution.
Number 468
EDDY JEANS, Manager, School Finance Section, Education Support
Services, Department of Education, answered via teleconference from
Juneau: "No, that's not, Representative Bunde. North Slope does
make a contribution to education. In fact, they currently
contribute about $27 million a year."
CHAIRMAN BUNDE asked whether it is correct that there are school
districts that have no local contribution.
MR. JEANS said that is correct. In Alaska, there are 19
unorganized school districts, otherwise known as the Regional
Education Attendance Areas (REAAs), that don't make a local
contribution through property tax. However, he believes they make
a local contribution through the impact aid program, as the
municipalities do. He indicated he was referring to "Public Law
81-874, impact aid."
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said that is federal money, which really comes from
us anyway. There isn't anybody locally reaching in their pockets
and paying taxes to support the schools.
MR. JEANS said that is correct; there is no property tax in the
REAAs.
Number 490
JOE LIBAL, Teacher, came forward to testify, specifying that he
teaches in South Anchorage. He referred to testimony by Ms. Orton
regarding a third grade/fourth grade split. He said splits are
good because the younger students can learn from the older
students. However, one thing he has seen whenever a split has been
tried is that usually the third grade leaders are put into the
fourth grade classroom, because they can handle the workload. What
happens then rather defeats the whole purpose for not tracking
students by ability level. With the leaders from the third grade
now in the fourth grade, Mr. Libal believes it diminishes the
standards that the other third graders try to live up to, which
dilutes the other third grade classrooms somewhat.
MR. LIBAL said he also has frustration with the pupil/teacher
ratio. At a recent school board meeting, Mr. Cristal made a
comment he'd thought was rather interesting, hitting the nail on
the head but not going far enough: If there are 50 students
projected and only 25 enroll, a teacher is dropped right away,
which is financially the way it should be done. Mr. Libal agreed
but said in his own case, more students enrolled than had been
projected. Although they had the numbers to use another teacher,
they waited four weeks for that to happen. While he could see
dropping a teacher right away, he doesn't see why they don't add
one right away if there are the numbers to it. He noted that when
that many children enroll, usually they aren't enrolling and
leaving right away.
MR. LIBAL said he tries to provide an educational atmosphere that
is safe both physically and mentally. After three weeks in class,
a boy had asked whether they'd have to move around classrooms.
When Mr. Libal said that was likely, the boy had replied, "Well,
I'm going to chain myself to your desk." That was not a mentally
safe environment; the children knew something had to happen but had
bonded with him, the teacher. Mr. Libal said that while tele-
education may be good for older students, he doesn't believe it
would work well on the elementary level, because the teachers are
so much more than just the knowledge they are giving to the
children. Physical presence, including the attitude and character
of the teacher, really adds to the education of the child.
Number 545
CHAIRMAN BUNDE discussed the "Washington Monument ploy": When
there isn't enough money to run government, they close down the
Washington Monument and everybody gets upset because a national
symbol is closed down. In some people's view, there isn't quite
enough money for education. Rather than becoming more efficient
and streamlining, and rather than becoming more productive, they
increase class size in hopes that parents will raise a hue and cry.
Chairman Bunde said that is a dangerous way to go, and he hopes
that isn't happening. He pointed out that he isn't accusing
anybody of that happening. However, it is something that gets
discussed in the legislative halls.
CHAIRMAN BUNDE asked Myrna Maynard, Legislative Administrative
Assistant to Senator Drue Pearce, whether she wished to add
anything; Ms. Maynard said no. Chairman Bunde requested that
someone from the school district respond to Mr. Lipscomb's
comments.
TAPE 97-45, SIDE B
Number 006
HARRIET DRUMMOND, Vice President, Anchorage School Board, came
forward to testify, specifying that this is her fourth September as
a member of the school board. Every year in the last four years,
they've gone through this tremendous upheaval for the first several
weeks of school; they are also frustrated with it. The board spent
several hours the previous week discussing how to staff for
additional students.
MS. DRUMMOND stated, "The staff is fond of saying that kids don't
come in neat packages, and 25 third graders don't always show up
where you expect them to. You'll get 40 third graders here and 15
there, and then what do you do? That's an issue that we're going
to have to grapple with. We have to grapple with the issue of how
do you get all the kids to school on the first day of school. When
we have 300-400 additional kids showing up every day of the first
ten days of school, because we're not at full population until the
end of September, that's an issue that we have to deal with as a
district. But we have to make those changes."
MS. DRUMMOND continued, "I have personal experience with my own
children having to be broken up into smaller classroom units in the
third grade, and it's terrible. They do get bonded with their
teachers, and you don't want to tear that bonding apart. But the
Anchorage School District has not increased class size in at least
three years - or is it four years? I'm sorry, I don't -- I believe
that happened just before I got elected to the school board. And
we are doing our darnedest to not cut into the classroom any more
than we have to. But every year this shows up. ... We projected
for 300 new kids last year, and 700 showed up; that's one and a
half elementary schools. We can't build them fast enough, never
mind fund for it. So, we'd appreciate all the help we can get."
MS. DRUMMOND concluded by saying she'd told herself this September
to stop apologizing for living in a growing, healthy community
where people want to live and have their children go to school.
While that is something to be proud of, she believes they should
also work on making their educational system as attractive as a
possible, so they can continue to grow and be healthy.
Number 024
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said the official class size hasn't increased, but
he is hearing more and more about larger classes. He asked whether
that is temporary until more teachers are hired.
MS. DRUMMOND affirmed that. They budget for "class sizes over 30,"
holding back a certain number of teacher hires until they know
where the big numbers have shown up. Some neighborhoods are in
turmoil all year, in terms of people moving in and out, and some
classes continue to grow. They must be prepared to help out those
classrooms that need it, with teachers or aides, or both.
CHAIRMAN BUNDE suggested that many times the board's challenges are
nearly insurmountable, requiring willingness to pitch in and
perhaps make a little sacrifice. He concluded by saying the
Anchorage legislative caucus, in particular, would do everything
possible to try to help.
MS. DRUMMOND expressed appreciation for that and said they'd be
happy to provide anything they could "to help you make that really
tough decision."
Number 043
MS. BREAGER said, "I'd like to know, on that rezoning, how it was
that you attempted to rezone and cut the people at Service, the
students at Service, and they ended up okaying every zone exemption
that was requested, and we ended up with more students."
CHAIRMAN BUNDE indicated Ms. Breager would have to ask the school
board members. However, he wanted to focus on the foundation
formula.
MS. BREAGER said that to her, what they pay for their business and
property in school tax is an obscene amount of money. She has two
children at Service High School.
Number 051
MR. LIPSCOMB commented on moving students after two or three weeks
of school: At Service High School, with 2,300 students, more than
1,000 had their schedules changed, which is more than 40 percent.
MS. BREAGER pointed out that those students were just as upset as
the elementary students were, although they may not bond in the
same way.
CHAIRMAN BUNDE noted that college students set up schedules but go
to register and are told, "No, you can't have what you've paid
for." It is a source of serious irritation. Even tenth and
eleventh graders have some serious plans that they'd like to stay
with.
Number 063
JOHN CYR, President, National Education Association-Alaska (NEA-
Alaska), came forward to testify. NEA-Alaska represents almost
11,000 teachers and support personnel, plus more than 100,000
children. He believes the basic premise here is wrong. He stated,
"The pie is not big enough. And to say that what we're going to do
is take some from `A' and give to `B,' or move money from
elementary kids to give to high school kids ... or to close ten
small schools and somehow that will alleviate the overcrowding
problems that we have on all the Railbelt, I just don't think it
does it."
MR. CYR said he has been out of the classroom for one year. He'd
had 46 students in his world history class, and he'd seen 168
students a day; he believes this is as important at the high school
level. Mr. Cyr had taught second grade and believes the parent who
said it is right: Kids bond with their teacher; that is the
critical thing. Teachers work with kids. "And we're not putting
enough money into the system to let that happen the way it should
in this state," he added.
Number 083
CHAIRMAN BUNDE asked Mr. Cyr why the public isn't willing to put
the money in there.
MR. CYR said he's not sure that is true anymore, although he hears
that. He believes we have "a heck of a job" to show that we are
using the money wisely. He stated, "But I really believe that the
people who sit in this front row who work with children are using
the money wisely. I think they're doing a good job. I think
they're doing everything they possibly can to make their classrooms
work for children. If you need legislative oversight, if you need
to give DOE some teeth to make sure the money is spent on children,
hey, I'll testify for that. I think that works."
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said they'd had a conversation before about the need
for public scrutiny from the day the money leaves the general fund;
he believes he also speaks for others when he says they are very
supportive of the money that ends up in the classroom, and they are
very concerned about that amount of money. Chairman Bunde said he
keeps saying, "Well, more money is not going to beget trust, but
trust will beget more money." He mentioned his constituents and
said it appears that the majority of the people have concerns that
the money is being well-spent.
Number 103
MR. CYR said Scholastic Achievement Test (SAT) scores statewide
have gone up, being the highest in math that they've been in 26
years. Scores are also the highest in reading comprehension,
although he didn't know the exact figures. We are educating more
children, working with more special education and handicapped kids,
and sending more kids off to college. Whether education pays and
whether they're doing a good job probably can't be answered by a
test. A child who starts kindergarten this year and graduates from
high school in the year 2010 will hit peak earning years somewhere
around the year 2030. In the long run, they'll know how successful
they were with that kid "when that child is our age." Success will
include what the person earns, what his or her family is like, and
what the city is like.
MR. CYR said we're tragically underfunding our children, "eating
their seed corn," which he thinks is criminal. He said he realizes
the politics that come into play and understands having to juggle
everything. But somewhere, we need to bite the bullet, make the
hard decisions, and hold accountable school districts, individual
teachers and legislators. We must do a better job, but we must
give people the tools to do the work that we ask them to do. Mr.
Cyr stated, "And I don't think we're doing that. I don't think you
can have somebody have 30 second graders and then say, `Okay, you
need to do a good job now.' That's crowd control."
CHAIRMAN BUNDE responded, "Well, at the legislative level, I can
assure you that we stand for tenure review every two years."
MR. CYR replied, "As do I."
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said they spend $30,000 or $40,000 per student per
year; then they get the school report card, and 70 to 80 percent of
eleventh graders aren't reading anywhere near grade level. "But
what's more tragic is they started in the third grade testing, and
they've gone steadily downhill," he said. "Now, that's not just
the teachers' fault; I rush to add that. But the problems that are
indicated there, I'm not sure are always solved by more money."
MR. CYR responded that he would agree, and he also has read the
report card. The schools are in desperate trouble.
CHAIRMAN BUNDE commented, "Money spent on housing, money spent on
trips to San Francisco - another conversation that I'm going to
have later today."
MR. CYR said it is a travesty. The DOE, the legislature or someone
needs to make sure that money goes to children. He stated, "I also
know the teachers who work in some of those districts, and they're
killing themselves trying to do the right thing for kids. I mean,
we're talking about communities that have a host of problems -
economic, social. I mean, if you walk into a community where the
unemployment rate is 75 percent ... and then say, `You know, you
gotta get through school, you gotta get a good education, you need
a world-class education, you know, you're 16, you need a world-
class education.' `Really? And why would that be? So I can shoot
hoops on the play deck?' I mean, to what purpose? Until we define
the purpose -- I mean, I taught in rural Alaska. It's tough, tough
work ...."
CHAIRMAN BUNDE agreed that good teaching is tough, tough work.
MR. CYR said it is devalued.
CHAIRMAN BUNDE concurred.
Number 161
CHAIRMAN BUNDE submitted that if we can get even a token local
contribution to education statewide, we will find that urban people
are more willing to support education. He stated, "That's my
presumption, based on many conversations. And if I'm wrong, I hope
people will tell me."
MR. CYR said, "I do appreciate the work you're doing; I truly do.
Taking this on is not an easy task."
Number 175
LELAND DISHMAN, Superintendent of Schools, North Slope Borough,
testified via teleconference from Barrow. He expressed
appreciation to Eddy Jeans for clearing the air. He indicated that
taxes on the North Slope from oil-related industries have
contributed an average of more than $25 million a year, over 20
years, to the state treasury, which he believes is a considerable
contribution to the state.
MR. DISHMAN said on the North Slope they have some problems
addressed that morning, including overcrowded classes. In Barrow,
Ipalook Elementary School, one of the largest in the state, has
more than 800 students in early childhood education (ECE) through
fifth grade. Many classrooms in the lower grades have more than 25
or 26 students in very small classrooms. The need for additional
state dollars and additional space is not unique to urban areas.
MR. DISHMAN noted that many of their classrooms are multi-age and
multi-grade. It is not unusual in rural schools to find a teacher
laboring with three different grade levels and up to 22 or 23
children in the same classroom, with various grade levels and
ability levels. He stated, "So, it's a tough job, wherever we are,
and we're all working for the common good of the kids." Mr.
Dishman emphasized that on the North Slope, they are trying their
best to contribute to the highest quality education they can have.
Number 198
MR. DISHMAN said they need to address somewhat the cost of distance
delivery, which is a vehicle to deliver a quality education. The
cost of interactive TVs between locations is very high, and he
isn't sure they'll be able to afford it over another year on the
Slope. Therefore, it is not a panacea.
MR. DISHMAN stated, "We, for over the past two years, have taken
over an $800,000-a-year cut from our assembly. So, basically, with
our enrollment increasing at about 100 to 105 kids per year, we
need five new classrooms and five new teachers, if we were a
utopian situation, every fall. But for the past two years, we've
been faced with a frozen budget, and I expect to see a decreased
budget coming up this year from the borough, because their funds
are down considerably. So, ... that's kind of my emotional plea,
is it's the idea that we're all in this together, and we need to
look for ... a common equation that will allow all kids to get a
high quality education, wherever they live, regardless, be it urban
or rural." Mr. Dishman deferred to Marie Carroll to present a
prepared statement.
Number 222
MARIE CARROLL, Chief of Staff, North Slope Borough, testified via
teleconference from Barrow. She stated:
"Prior to the discovery of oil at Prudhoe Bay, life on the North
Slope was very primitive, and poverty was common. I was there and
didn't realize it when I was growing up. Over the past 25 years,
we have worked hard and made many improvements in our public
services. One of the most important was to establish K-12 schools
in each of our eight villages.
"The Inupiat people and other borough residents place a very high
value on education. We are committed to quality schools and
quality education. Our children are our future. We've said that
many times. They are our first priority. Only through education
can they have hope and a real opportunity for quality life in the
fast-changing world. I've seen that change over the past 25 years
in my own life and in our families. With the changes, I think
education is even more important now to us than it was even 40
years ago, or even 30 years ago.
"I am deeply concerned, Mr. Chairman, that some of the educational
foundation funding measures considered in the last session of the
legislature were not focused on our children, their needs and their
future. The Governor, the members of the legislature and all
Alaskans should be working for the common good for all of Alaska's
children. Alaska has the resources to provide quality education
and quality schools which will enable all children to achieve their
full potential.
"Mr. Chairman and the members of the committee, ... we all need to
take a long-term view of our children's future and the state of
Alaska's long-term economic interests. I believe that means
providing needed and quality education for all children, urban and
rural. I think Mr. Dishman ... made it clear that we face the same
problems that the urban schools do in rural Alaska, working
together and avoiding regional conflict, and maintaining conditions
which create good jobs and opportunity for future generations. ...
I believe that we all need to work towards these goals."
MS. CARROLL thanked the committee for the opportunity to testify.
She concluded by saying the North Slope Borough and their school
district are committed to working with the legislature to improve
the quality of education for all students in Alaska.
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said he'd heard that rural Alaska is one of the
fastest growing areas in Alaska. He asked whether Mr. Jeans could
comment on that.
MR. JEANS said he could not.
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said several schools now indicate they have
education funded for early childhood education (ECE) through
twelfth grade. He asked whether that service is offered in
Anchorage. Then he commented, "I see a shaking of the head, no,
that that's not offered in Anchorage." He asked for confirmation
that it is only offered in rural areas.
MR. JEANS responded that the foundation program only provides
funding for kindergarten through twelfth grade, unless children at
least three years old, he believes, require special education
services. They don't provide funding for other preschool programs.
CHAIRMAN BUNDE asked whether that would include the ECE.
MR. JEANS replied that he is assuming the ECE is an early childhood
program. They don't provide funding through the foundation program
for that, only for special education children under five.
ASHLEY REED came forward to testify, speaking as a parent, not a
lobbyist. He has traveled around the state and has a child who
will soon go to school. While he seldom agrees with John Cyr on
issues, he'd found himself agreeing with him that day. Mr. Reed
said he believes this legislation and this hearing are pitting
different parts of Alaska against one another. Alaskans appreciate
living in a large state with diverse regions and cultures. Rather
than pitting regions against each other, we need to try to work
together.
MR. REED agreed with Mr. Cyr that we're trying to divvy up a pie
that is already too small. While he understands that the
legislature is in a budget-cutting mode, and it should be applauded
for efforts on that, when we're talking about our children, we're
talking about Alaska's future. This is an area that we should look
at and try to fully fund.
MR. REED commended the chairman's and the legislature's efforts
last year in passing a cigarette tax, which would take effect the
following day and raise approximately $30 million. However, he
doesn't believe it is in the best interest of Alaskans to rewrite
a formula, taking away from Peter to pay Paul.
Number 316
MR. REED mentioned testimony from parents and teachers in whose
voices he'd heard frustration, anger and disappointment that they
don't have the funds to provide the type of quality education in
which they believe. Mr. Reed said he doesn't want to take money
from any other community so that kids in Anchorage can have a
better education. Rather, he wants the children of Alaska, no
matter where they live, to have the same quality of education.
MR. REED said parents and teachers need to ask for the
legislature's leadership in trying to broaden the debate, which has
been put in a box: the school foundation formula. If Anchorage
wants more money, it must be moved from one part of the box to
another. Mr. Reed acknowledged there are many issues, including
the issue of unorganized boroughs; rather than talking about fixing
this one problem or this one bill, maybe they need a package of
legislation or increased appropriations, such as from an
unorganized borough tax, for example. He believes that to limit it
and just say we are going to revise the school foundation formula
puts Alaskans at peril. There will be winners and losers.
However, Mr. Reed said, if we reach into our hearts and do what's
right, we're not going to steal from Peter to pay Paul. Instead,
we will look for a way to accommodate all of our children in
Alaska, which he believes is what we should do.
MR. REED said there are schools in rural Alaska without water, and
there are communities without sewers. Anchorage residents
sometimes forget how convenient life is, and how much luxury they
have. He asked whether we should we have running water in every
classroom and every school, and he said he believes we should.
However, we don't have that. In some communities in rural Alaska,
the school is fortunate to have running water. But it may be the
only place in the community that has running water, and people
wanting a shower may have to go to the school to get one.
MR. REED noted that legislators have the opportunity to visit
various communities and interact with colleagues from around the
state. He again asked that legislators offer leadership to try to
change the debate from a "small box" to a package that is in the
best interests of Alaska's children.
MR. REED said the Alaskan public has proven, through public opinion
polls, that they clearly want the cost of government reduced; he
indicated the legislature has done a good job of heading in that
direction. However, the same polls show a large commitment for
public education and related funding. Mr. Reed asked again that
they consider expanding the pie. The cost of education goes up, as
does the cost of living and government salaries and per diem. Mr.
Reed mentioned the high cost differential between Anchorage and
Barrow and cited examples. He said he'd mentioned the North Slope
because it is a school district that is threatened under the
current drafted legislation.
MR. REED suggested that if legislators had the commitment shown in
campaign brochures, we'd have well-funded education in Alaska. He
again encouraged the committee to offer leadership and encourage
colleagues to look at the issue in a different debate format, as he
believes that would truly be in the best interests of Alaskans.
Number 396
CHAIRMAN BUNDE pointed out that the goal of this bill is twofold.
First is to make the formula simpler so that the general public
understands it and perhaps is more supportive, which may bring more
financial support. The formula is rather convoluted now and hasn't
been changed since the early 1980s. The other part is to make it
more fair, because if people believe they're being treated fairly,
then they're willing to provide the financial support.
Number 404
MR. REED agreed those are legitimate concerns. However, he also
believes the public's primary concern is for their sons or
daughters in Anchorage to have adequate funding. When people
testify that they want the formula changed, perhaps they should be
asked whether they believe education is being funded adequately.
The debate has gone on so long inside this small box, people have
become accustomed to arguing for more money within the context of
that box. He believes the debate is, and should be, greater than
that.
CHAIRMAN BUNDE commented that personally, he also supports other
educational endeavors, particularly those that will bring the
unorganized boroughs into the twentieth century.
Number 420
REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN said in the private sector, people seek to
improve quality of their raw materials when looking at producing a
product. One way they improve the quality of their particular
goods is to work closely with their suppliers, in terms of quality
control, letting the supplier know their quality standards, for
example. In talking about education, they are talking about kids
coming into the system, and improving the quality before they come
into the process is important; Representative Kemplen believes it
should be discussed more by the leaders of this state, particularly
those interested in education. He said having much more of a
holistic approach to educating our people is extremely important.
REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN noted that from the prenatal stage through
the first years of life, the foundation is being laid for the rest
of an individual's life, including how well the person can
assimilate information and learn. If someone wants results from an
eighth grade reading score or an exit exam, it makes sense to look
at improving quality in the early years, before the kids come into
the educational system. Representative Kemplen said providing
resources to improve the quality, including prenatal care, Head
Start programs, and "all of those programs and those initiatives
that enhance the ability of a human being to learn," is a wise
investment. When he looks at the foundation formula, he sees that
it deals with funding for kids once they're in the system.
Number 473
REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN said we can have the most impact on those
kids before they get into the system. For a more comprehensive
approach to education, it seemed they would look at plugging into
this foundation formula not just the distribution of monies to
particular school districts or K-12 individuals, but also to
support the preschool programs, to support initiatives, so that the
quality for kids is excellent before teachers even have a chance to
interact with them. He applauds Mr. Reed for asking the leadership
of this legislature and this state to think beyond the box, and to
think in a broader perspective. He expressed hope that as we
continue this dialogue, Alaskans will open their minds and think
about the education of our citizens in a more holistic fashion.
Number 504
CHAIRMAN BUNDE referred to a comment by Mr. Cyr about a 16-year-old
in Chevak, for example, whom they expect to excel in high school,
but to do what? He suggested that development of our economy goes
hand-in-hand with what they are trying to achieve here. With the
two divisive issues of subsistence and Indian country on the
agenda, he'd hate to see education become a third divisive issue.
"But they have to be interrelated in people's minds," he added.
Number 520
MR. REED commended Chairman Bunde for a good job of chairing this
committee over the years, and he noted the hours the committee
members spend listening to concerns, debate and information about
education. He encouraged this committee to try to lead their
colleagues down a path of a broader discussion, saying it is good
government and good politics. He commented that he'd never known
a politician that lost a race because of being considered pro-
education.
CHAIRMAN BUNDE responded, "Good point. And I would say:
Collectively, we're all wiser than we are individually. So, that's
one of the reasons we're pleased with your testimony."
Number 563
KATHI GILLESPIE, Legislative Chairman, Anchorage School Board, came
forward to testify. With her were Harriet Drummond, Vice President
of the Anchorage School Board, who had testified earlier; Larry
Wiget, Director of Public Affairs and Government Relations for the
Anchorage School District; and Janet Stokesbary, Chief Financial
Officer.
MS. GILLESPIE expressed appreciation for this hearing and the past
conversation, particularly the previous year. She stated, "We also
appreciate, over the course of the last few years, you fully
funding education and also increasing funding to take care of
student enrollment, which has helped particularly in the Anchorage
School District."
MS. GILLESPIE said the foundation formula, as originally put
forward, has been a problem and a concern for the Anchorage School
District. It has been ten years since it was developed and put
into place, and they propose that it is time to take another look
at it, which the legislature has decided to do. They look forward
to the results of the area cost differential study being conducted
right now on the Senate side.
MS. GILLESPIE said they have approximately 40 percent of the
students and receive 30 percent of the funding. They also have an
increased proportional share of special education students because
of the services they provide in the Anchorage School District. It
makes good business sense to take a look at this foundation formula
because of changes in population in Alaska.
MS. GILLESPIE advised members that they'd developed a spreadsheet
after looking at some proposals put forward by the House and
Senate, including HB 148; they'd tried, on some issues that they
believe are important for the Anchorage School District, to list
advantages and disadvantages they see in each proposal. In
addition, they are putting together a position paper on the
foundation formula rewrite, and Ms. Gillespie offered to highlight
some of the issues outlined there. She explained, "They're all
important. And do we expect to see all of these things happen in
a foundation rewrite? No, we don't. But what we would hope to do
... is to broaden the conversation and give you our perspective as
people that represent the parents and teachers and kids in the
Anchorage School District."
MS. GILLESPIE said they have talked for years about inflation-
proofing the foundation formula, and they realize that with the
financial situation that the state is in, and with the decline in
oil funding, that is a problematic issue for the state. [Comments
cut off mid-speech by tape change.]
TAPE 97-46, SIDE A
Number 001
MS. GILLESPIE said in the last ten years, because of inflation,
their funding has decreased 30 percent in terms of real dollars,
although the value of the foundation has increased 1.7 percent.
Over the past seven years, they have become more streamlined.
They've had to cut programs to the tune of $50 million. She asked,
"Has that had an effect on the quality of education that we've been
able to provide our kids? Absolutely. Has it had an effect on
class size? Yes, it has, although we've gone out of our way to try
to protect the classroom and the class size, in particular." Ms.
Gillespie said they're able to do fewer and fewer programs for
their kids because of the erosion in the foundation formula, and
they'd like to see that addressed.
MS. GILLESPIE said pupil transportation is an issue for urban
districts and districts that have transportation money. "We do
want to see that outside the foundation formula because the
foundation has not been inflation-proofed," she said. "We have
worked very hard over the last ten years ... to ratchet down the
costs that it cost us to provide pupil transportation here in the
district, and we are very concerned over some of the proposals -
not in this particular bill, but in others - to put the
transportation money in the foundation, because of the effect that
we're seeing ... on other parts of the instructional programs
because of ... the problems with inflation."
Number 018
MS. GILLESPIE discussed another concern in Anchorage relating to
sixth graders. Instructionally, they are moving more and more to
the idea that sixth graders should be in a middle school situation.
Other districts throughout the state, especially urban ones such as
Kenai, Fairbanks and the Matanuska-Susitna Borough, have middle
schools that include sixth graders.
MS. GILLESPIE advised members that in Anchorage, the problem is
that sixth graders, under the present foundation formula, are
considered elementary students. She explained, "Elementary
students are funded, as Mr. Lipscomb told you, at a lesser amount
than secondary students are funded, about $1,100. It costs us $700
more to educate a sixth grader in a middle school situation than it
does to educate that sixth grader in an elementary school. And so,
while instructionally we ... are discussing the idea of `maybe it's
more appropriate for the sixth graders to be in a secondary
situation,' we don't have that flexibility within the foundation
formula. Also, in terms of space utilization, sixth graders are
considered elementary students; therefore, they get the 106 square
feet that an elementary student gets, as opposed to 150 square feet
that a secondary student gets. So, one of the things that we would
very much like to see in any foundation rewrite is discussion about
some flexibility, whether or not sixth graders would be considered
elementary students or secondary students."
Number 033
MS. GILLESPIE said they are very concerned about unfunded mandates
at both national and state levels. They'd recently spoken with DOE
Commissioner Holloway, who was considering mandating the National
Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) test for students.
Unfortunately, that is costly, estimated at approximately $14,000
for the Anchorage School District. Ms. Gillespie stated her
understanding that there'd been further discussion at DOE, and
there is a possibility they aren't going to mandate NAEP now
because of the cost.
MS. GILLESPIE said as we look at the quality schools initiative and
some other special education mandates, the costs of charter
schools, including start-up and administrative costs, are being
mandated. In some respects, these aren't mandated but are options
that the public expects them to follow through with; they are
increased costs for them, but not increased costs that they are
getting from the state.
MS. GILLESPIE said technology is also an issue for the Anchorage
School District. They are grappling right now with how to begin to
provide technology in their schools, with their current operating
budget, at the level that some of the rural districts are able to
provide for their students. She explained, "We can't survive on
grant money alone, trying to implement technology in our schools.
Somehow, we're going to have to try and figure out a way to include
this in our operations."
Number 052
MS. GILLESPIE expressed appreciation for the testimony that day,
which shows the frustration of Anchorage residents over education
and related funding. There are broad concerns about class size.
In the Anchorage School District, they try to set a minimum class
size but have difficulty setting a maximum class size. This has
certainly impacted areas with a high potential for growth,
including Eagle River, South Anchorage, or any area that happens to
experience a big increase in student enrollment. Within the budget
constraints, they haven't been able to move forward to reduce class
size and maintain the quality of programs that they believe they
must provide for all students.
Number 061
MS. GILLESPIE said the equity of the curriculum is also an issue.
Because of growth and inflation, they feel the quality of their
curriculum has decreased, which concerns them greatly. She
concluded, "It's been ten years. We were not entirely satisfied
with the foundation as it was originally set up; it is not a
perfect formula, ... from our perspective. And so, we applaud your
efforts to take another look - a fresh look - at the foundation
formula, and to try and come up with a foundation that is equitable
to everyone in the state. We do educate the majority of students
in the state, and we would like to do a better job with the funds
available." She expressed appreciation for the opportunity to talk
with the committee, and she said she knew they'd be having
continued discussions during the legislative session.
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said, "A question on the NAEP test: Is that the
commitment that the state Administration made to follow ...
Clinton's Administration, fourth and eighth grade ...?"
MS. GILLESPIE replied that those are two separate issues. The NAEP
test is governed by the independent board at a national level; they
give the test to selected classrooms and then develop statewide
statistics. Unfortunately, there is a cost to the Anchorage School
District, and they weren't able to get much information appropriate
for Anchorage. She commented, "And so, we consider that an
unfunded mandate. If the state wants it, we believe the state
should pay for it."
CHAIRMAN BUNDE asked, "What would you anticipate it would cost the
Anchorage district if the state were to adopt the Clinton
Administration's support for the eighth grade testing proposal?"
Number 091
MS. GILLESPIE responded, "We're very concerned about that,
particularly in light of the fact that the test has not been
developed yet. But there have been some news reports ... from the
Clinton Administration that this test would be available in a very
short time, the results would be available in a very short time,
kid-specific, school-specific, district-specific and state-
specific. Now, one can only image what that would cost, to get
that in a short turnaround time and ... be specific to the kid.
So, we have been in contact with Senator Stevens' office. There
have been several amendments to the education appropriations bill
that's before the Congress right now. And what we're saying is
that if they go forward with national testing, then we need to see
some money come from the federal level to subsidize that, so it's
not a cost to the district or to the state, quite frankly."
CHAIRMAN BUNDE asked how Ms. Gillespie would react to Mr. Reed's
comments about having a bigger pie rather than shuffling the pieces
of the pie. He specified that it didn't have to be an "either/or"
response.
MS. GILLESPIE replied that the issue is always adequacy and equity.
She agreed that costs for education have risen, as they've gone up
in every other area. She stated, "But reality is you have to deal
with the revenue that you're taking in, as a community and as a
state. And I think that we all have a part to play in reducing our
costs and becoming more efficient, in order to deal with the
reality of Prudhoe's decline. And so, I do believe that -- you
know, there's a constitutional mandate to support education. I do
believe that we cannot balance the budget by decreasing funding for
education, but I think that we have a part to play also in helping
the state deal with the reality of reduced revenues from oil
funding. But because we're having difficulty with the adequacy
issue, and more money and adequate money, that should not preclude
us from dealing with the other piece of this, which is the equity
issue and how that money is distributed."
Number 102
MS. GILLESPIE continued, "We in the Anchorage School District have
had ... ongoing concerns about the equity portion of this. And so,
I don't think that we should not have the discussion about the
foundation rewrite, or only have that discussion if there is
unlimited funding to fund education. They are both equally
important discussions, but the one should not preclude the other,
in my mind."
CHAIRMAN BUNDE clarified that he didn't mean to indicate it was an
either/or situation. Noting that he himself lives in the Service
High School area, he asked Ms. Gillespie to comment on Mr.
Lipscomb's testimony regarding why Bartlett High School appears to
be funded at a much higher level than Service High School.
Number 111
MS. GILLESPIE explained that in the Anchorage School District, some
areas of the budget are funded by school, whereas some are funded
by student. She stated, "And one of the things that we started
discussing during the last budget discussion is: Do we need to
take a fresh look at the way we allocate funds, and take more of
those items that are now funded by school and take a look at
funding them by student? We had hoped to address the inequity
there by boundary changes. Unfortunately, the senior high level,
for a variety of reasons, we were not able to equalize the student
population as we had hoped. And so now, I think that that gives
even more seriousness to the issue of taking a look ... at the
budget and trying to fund those items that should be funded by
student by student, and then reduce the number of things that are
funded by school. But, there again, do you set a minimum or a
maximum? ... And do you take away ... from the one school in order
to give to the other school if you can't hire more people? And so,
we're grappling at a micro-level ... with the same issues that
you're grappling with at a macro-level. And ... it's an ongoing
discussion."
Number 128
REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN noted that some areas of the community have
demographics that typically lead to more well-prepared children, in
terms of household incomes, access to resources, and two-parent
families, for example, whereas in other parts of the community,
there are lower incomes and single-parent households. That
difference in geographical area results in different qualities of
students. One could argue that students from higher-income, two-
parent households are better prepared to learn, and that the school
district can provide a quality education with little remedial need,
while those from lower-income, single-parent households come ill-
prepared to learn and may need remedial assistance to help them
improve the quality of that input. Representative Kemplen likened
it to a business that gets a gear from one supplier which is finely
tuned and well-machined, so that little must be done to plug it
into the process, while from another supplier, it gets a gear with
many burrs, so that in order for it to fit into the system and
function well, additional work must be done.
REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN referred to earlier discussion of per-unit,
per-student funding. He asked how that would work, expressing
concern about the difference between prepared and ill-prepared
students, and he suggested the latter would require more money.
MS. GILLESPIE said she agreed with Representative Kemplen. She
stated that the presentation by Mr. Lipscomb had not yet been given
to the school board, although she'd heard it the previous day at
the South Anchorage Alliance meeting. She offered information
about the kinds of things that she believes Mr. Lipscomb is talking
about. For example, one nurse would be provided for a high school
of 2,300 kids, and one nurse would also be provided for a high
school of 1,400 students. Ms. Gillespie stated, "You know, one
might say that in one school, you're getting half the nursing care
that you're getting half the nursing care that you're getting ...
in the other school, the same thing with the amount of activity
funds, where you have the same ... amount of activity money given
at a school of 2,300, as opposed to a school of 1,400. And you
might say that ... there was twice as much money given to the
school of 1,400 as to the school of 2,300."
MS. GILLESPIE said those are issues that the school board is
grappling with, and they'll be working with Mr. Cristal and the
parent-teacher community to address those sorts of issues. She
doesn't know what the resolution will be. It will be very
difficult within the budget constraints, though, to put more money
into the schools with higher populations. Ms. Gillespie stated,
"That is something that we're looking at, just as you're looking at
equity in funding on a statewide level. It's an issue for all of
us." She said they hope to do a good job. They'll continue to
talk to the public about it and hopefully respond in some way that
will equalize the funding and services provided for all students in
the Anchorage School District.
Number 192
REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN said many large organizations or
corporations always try to improve the quality of their input, in
order to produce a better product. He referred to earlier
testimony about special education funding in the foundation formula
that is specifically targeted for children under five. He asked
whether the school district has any programs underway, or
initiatives in place, that seek to improve the quality of preschool
children, so that when they come to the school district, they are
better prepared to learn and to respond readily to the "magic"
worked on them by the schools.
MS. GILLESPIE replied that they work with the programs funded by
the state. They provide special education services for children
from birth up until five years old, depending on the level of need.
They also provide some support for the Head Start program, and they
try to transition those Head Start students and parents up through
grade three, through `Project Pride.' She said they can't afford
the grade levels they are offering now, though, and there is no way
they can provide early childhood education with the current
financial situation. If the state wants to provide those, as extra
funding, she'd think that is great, but they must concentrate on
the grade levels that they are mandated to serve now, starting with
kindergarten.
Number 222
REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN asked whether the school district would
support a change in the foundation formula to allocate funding for
preschool services that isn't taken away from existing resources.
MS. GILLESPIE said only if it is coupled with inflation-proofing.
If they expand the scope of work without inflation-proofing the
foundation formula, it will just lead them faster down the road to
insufficient funds. "So, if it's coupled with inflation-proofing,
absolutely," she concluded.
Number 240
HARRIET DRUMMOND stated, "At a recent work session, the board
agreed that we need to do some outreach to parents, beginning at
birth of their children. And we agreed that ... we need to do that
within the funding that we currently have. But how much education
can we do, as Ms. Gillespie said, outside of our funding for K-12?
We are partnering where we can. I know specifically at North Star
- and where is the Healthy Start program, besides North Star? -
we're partnering to provide space for the Healthy Start program,
which is a state program that reaches out to the parents and
preschoolers, reaches out to parents who are monolingual in a
language other than English, to help bring them into school ready
to learn. But that's only possible in the schools that are getting
Title 1 funding already, the extra funding from the federal
government, to help low-income-area schools."
MS. DRUMMOND agreed there are children coming to school not ready
to learn in the same way that others are. Where possible, they
provide partnership opportunities, but they can't provide the
funding. However, if they can provide the space, they're doing it.
Ms. Drummond stated, "You are seeing the results in your own
neighborhood of Fairview. And that community has figured out and
made tremendous strides in their test scores this year, this past
profiles and performance report. But that took a great deal of
community will and resolve ... to put the money and the resources
where it was most needed. And I think we're seeing that result;
it's not without a lot of hard work. ... So, those are your local
success stories."
MS. DRUMMOND said Mr. Lipscomb's issue with facilities is also a
local issue they are working on. Last spring, Anchorage voters
agreed to pay more local taxes to renew and renovate many older
schools, and to put significant amounts of money into studying and
designing the needs of Service High School, Dimond High School, and
several other old secondary schools.
MS. DRUMMOND stated, "It's now their turn, and we're working on it.
And we are prepared to pay for that ourselves. ... There doesn't
seem to be any assistance coming from a statewide level, but we are
moving forward. We are accountable to the local voters; they
wouldn't be approving one bond issue after another if they didn't
think we were doing the job right now. But it takes time."
CHAIRMAN BUNDE responded that hopefully there will be, in the not-
too-distant future, more school construction and maintenance
(indisc.).
MS. DRUMMOND replied, "We hope so. And we wrote those bond issues
so we could take advantage of that when the time came. Thank you."
Number 273
REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN mentioned the common wisdom of reducing
class size for "the professionally trained master teacher." He
said an alternative scenario proposed is reducing the adult-to-
child ratio, which can be done by providing more parents or other
adults in the classroom who can assist the professional teacher.
For example, the teacher could give assignments; adults could take
five or six students in a group, with the teacher being a "rover"
but the other adults working on a one-to-one, personal level with
the children.
REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN indicated this has come up in discussions of
welfare reform, particularly in bush communities and in some
Anchorage neighborhoods that are looking at ways to provide a work
environment for adults currently receiving public assistance, who
are now mandated to have some sort of productive work activity.
Many villages don't have a cash economy, and even some lower-income
Anchorage neighborhoods have inadequate work opportunities for
single parents, especially when child care and transportation are
factored in. The idea is to provide funding for parents in the
elementary schools to become teacher aides, for want of a better
word. That brings more adults into the elementary school
environment. And if they're parents, it provides them an economic
incentive to be involved in their children's education, because
they are working at the elementary school.
REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN asked for a "read" from the school district
as to the utility of that approach. He asked whether only teacher-
to-pupil ratios are important in talking about class size, or
whether they could also look at adult-to-child ratios.
Number 334
MS. GILLESPIE replied that the first choice, always, is fewer
children in the classroom, for a variety of reasons. Adding more
children and a second person only adds warm bodies, not necessarily
improving the instructional program because of limited space,
increased noise and distraction. So, certainly reducing the number
of children per certified teacher is the number one priority. Ms.
Gillespie said they had, in the past, to address some class sizes,
provided a teacher aide who'd had some training. But it isn't
their first choice as far as the instructional program for the
children.
MS. GILLESPIE disagreed with the idea of subsidizing welfare reform
out of the education budget, saying there isn't the funding for
that. They want to ensure that people in the classrooms are
trained and are an asset to the students. While providing jobs for
people trying to work their way off of welfare is a common
commitment that everyone will have to address, and while the school
district will be willing to take a look at whether there is a part
they can play, the wholesale paying of people to do jobs that they
used to volunteer for is not within their means now. Ms. Gillespie
said it is an interesting concept. But first they'd have to
discuss whether they want to put more children and more adults in
a room, and whether that is good for the instructional program.
And second, how would they train those people and fund putting them
in the classroom? She restated that it is an interesting concept
but would deviate from what they consider good practice right now.
Number 364
MS. DRUMMOND commented that as a board, they haven't made that
decision to which Ms. Gillespie was referring. But on an isolated
basis, it is happening. Muldoon Elementary School did a grant-
funded project, last year or the year before, where they paid
parents who were on welfare; she didn't know the name of the
project or the results. Ms. Drummond emphasized that they can't do
this on a grants basis, school by school. She said, "We either
need to decide that we're going to do it citywide, or we have
pockets where things are happening and pockets where they aren't
happening because the grant money isn't there."
Number 375
REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN indicated the principal of Muldoon
Elementary School had expressed that the experiment was an
unqualified success, resulting in a significant improvement in
parental participation, including increased self-esteem in the
parents in terms of being involved with their children's education,
for example. In addition, the children themselves became more
enthusiastic about learning because their parents were there and
involved. He stated his belief that it is a successful prototype
in Anchorage, particularly in their disadvantaged elementary
schools, that pays significant dividends. Representative Kemplen
suggested that should be looked at more seriously as public policy.
He reiterated the need to broaden the perspective on what is
possible to meet the challenges of today.
Number 398
CHAIRMAN BUNDE commented that philosophically, there are different
points of view as to how much the government should "parent"
children. While he encouraged the school board to increase
parental involvement, paying bribes for parents to do what good
parents ought to do is another area to discuss.
CHAIRMAN BUNDE announced a five-minute break at 11:15 a.m. He
called the meeting back to order at 11:20 a.m.
Number 406
KAREN KULIN came forward to testify. She said they'd moved to
Anchorage 14 years ago, choosing - she emphasized that word - to
live on the upper hillside; her children never had school buses.
However, her husband's partner lives on a worse hill in Eagle
River, and that woman's children have always had school buses. Ms.
Kulin stated, "The school district told me in approximately '84
that that was a political thing, that they were given four-wheel-
drive school buses, and it takes a lot of money, and I'll never
have it. But it's my choice. I don't have sewers where I live.
I understand villages don't have sewers in a lot of areas. Again,
that's my choice."
MS. KULIN said her husband commercial fishes in Chignik, where nine
years ago they built a new school with state money; four children
were going to the school then, and the school cost a half million
dollars to build. She stated, "It's breathtaking to look at, you
know - oak wainscoting, the science labs that my kids have never
had at O'Malley, Hanshew or Service High School. They have a
choice to live there, like I have a choice to live here. They
don't pay taxes; I pay a great deal of taxes." Ms. Kulin advised
members that this is a bad fishing year. However, the father of
several of these children in past years has made approximately $1
million per year, yet he doesn't share in the cost of his
children's education.
MS. KULIN pointed out that they are talking about disadvantaged
children here. She feels they are taking money away from the
future leaders of America. She stated, "I'm not saying other
children should not be given funds, but you don't take away from
funds from the children who will return to society, more than
likely, in the end." She said statistically, Service High School
is a disadvantaged school. Her oldest daughter started there in
1988 and graduated in 1992; her next daughter went there from 1992
to 1996; and this year, she has another freshman there.
MS. KULIN indicated she has watched the total disintegration of the
school district; she cited overcrowding and maintenance of the
school as issues. She and her husband worked on the (indisc.) and
grounds committee for several years when their oldest daughter was
there. The school was in appalling disrepair, and the bathrooms
were atrocious. When her second daughter went there, children
themselves put toilet paper in the bathrooms because of inadequate
custodians. Ms. Kulin asked, "Is that an advantage or a
disadvantage?"
MS. KULIN said she understands there is a need for preschool
education. However, if they can't fund K-12 adequately, why are
they even looking at preschool? While she hadn't originally
planned to testify, she'd become frustrated upon listening. She
said she believes the bush schools need money, but not necessarily
in the way it is being allocated, and she isn't sure that
"individually, per student" will be the answer.
MS. KULIN concluded, "But I think we have to remember that people
do have a choice. I know that in our area, it appears to me that
we're pouring more into a high school, with taxpayer money, than
any school in the Anchorage School District, if you just look at
property values, but yet our students are being given less." Ms.
Kulin asked whether members saw her point at all.
Number 505
REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN responded that the educational system in
Alaska needs more money.
MS. KULIN agreed but said it also needs better allocation. She'd
spent innumerable hours at O'Malley, Hanshew and Service, which is
part of being a parent. While she understands that these children
are disadvantaged and feels sorry for them, she doesn't think
paying parents to be parents is necessarily what it is all about.
REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN indicated that reasonable, rational people
fine-tune things, looking for ways to do a better job than they did
yesterday, and change requires flexibility. However, some parents
lack good parenting skills, and their children may produce costs to
the community through crime or other dysfunctional behavior.
MS. KULIN mentioned the burden.
REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN said it benefits a community to invest in
improving parenting skills and giving a child the best chance
possible in life, so that the individual moves off the track
leading to crime, drugs and dysfunctional behavior. He said we
should be looking both at additional money for K-12 and at
improving the quality of children coming into the K-12 system; he
mentioned providing the type of initiatives that improve that
quality.
Number 570
MS. KULIN agreed and said if there was excess money, she could see
that. However, if a family can barely feed itself, do they adopt
more children? These children are being shortchanged already, and
she can't understand advocating bringing more in within the
preschool system. She thinks every child should be given the
opportunity of going to preschool; her own children certainly went.
But she doesn't think they can take away from properly educating
those in the system already to bring more into that realm. She
recounted how, a number of years ago, a friend had felt he needed
to move to the O'Malley district because the test scores were
always better there, which he believed meant that O'Malley had
better teachers. Ms. Kulin stated, "But that doesn't mean that we
have better teachers. It means we have better parent involvement."
While she could understand and appreciate what Representative
Kemplen was saying, she believes they must take care of what they
already have before bringing on more.
MS. KULIN restated her belief that the school district has
seriously deteriorated. She commented, "I think it's a total
'dumbing' of America, if you want to know the truth." Her oldest
daughter, who is in a master's teaching program and doing a
practicum at Hanshew, told her the textbooks are appalling. While
her daughter teaches both a gifted eighth grade class and a regular
class, the former has perhaps 20 gifted students and 10 others. It
is frustrating for those who can't keep up. "That's mainstreaming,
I guess," Ms. Kulin commented.
Number 624
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said Ms. Kulin had presented some interesting and
challenging questions, and her testimony was a good endorsement of
the high school competency tests just passed the previous year. He
indicated he shared Ms. Kulin's frustration.
TAPE 97-46, SIDE B
Number 004
ROBERT GOTTSTEIN came forward to testify, specifying that although
he is a member of the Board of Education, he wasn't representing
the board. An owner of Northern Television and the Fourth Avenue
Theater, he has degrees in business and economics, with a major in
finance. He grew up here and has been in business here since
college, for the last 20 years. He was involved in a large
organization, Carr-Gottstein, that is on the same scale as the
Anchorage School District in terms of numbers of employees; he said
he moved around a lot in that organization, taking advantage of an
opportunity he had to learn a business.
MR. GOTTSTEIN said for the last ten years, he'd been concerned
about schools in general in Alaska, and the education of people,
whether in preschool, K-12 or postsecondary. He said we've got a
great opportunity in this state, and it's not being fulfilled.
When the Governor asked him to join the Board of Education, he did
it because he thought there were ways to contribute to the
solution, using his background and expertise that perhaps others
don't have. He said he might consider himself an education
economist, and he doesn't know that others have really attempted to
make the connection between economics, finance, and education.
Number 024
MR. GOTTSTEIN, himself a twin, recounted a story a professor had
told him about six-year-old twins, one depressed and one jovial,
who couldn't see eye to eye. A psychologist put the sad one in a
room filled with toys and the happy one in a room filled with
manure. An hour later, the one with the toys was crying because he
couldn't find the one toy he was looking for. When they opened the
other door, manure was flying and the child said, "Where there's
this much manure, there's got to be a pony in here somewhere."
MR. GOTTSTEIN said that is the point here. To meet expectations
for all Alaskan children, we must re-evaluate how we're doing
things and whether they are really designed to produce the best
results. We spend $1,150,000,000 in Alaska on K-12, counting
federal, state and local dollars. He said to be generous, he can't
be very complimentary of the business practices of education. He
believes it is apparent to the public that "if it's going to take
more money for education, we cannot continue to practice and
deliver in the manner in which we have." However, he can't say
whether we need more, although he has some instincts to believe
that if we spent more, we could produce better results. "But I'm
not here to tell you that if we simply got more, we would produce
better results," he added.
MR. GOTTSTEIN said the Board of Education, with the Department of
Education, has worked a number of years on a new foundation
formula, and he himself has spent a lot of time on it. Compared to
the current practice of delivering schools, he thinks it is head
and shoulders above that - not that it couldn't be improved upon,
because he agrees that one can always improve upon things. While
he believes that elements of other bills have virtue, the bills
introduced last year missed a component that he thinks is
fundamental to the success of good practices in education.
Number 060
MR. GOTTSTEIN said he believes we must, in a sense, block grant
reasonable amounts of money to districts, or to students and
families in a public setting, and let communities decide, within
good-practice parameters, how best to spend those monies. And we
have to be very good at determining what is reasonable. Mr.
Gottstein said it is up to the state, and the bill described -
testing at the end of the senior year - is an example of the kinds
of things we need to do. We need to assess how our children are
doing. While the end of the line is an important point, there are
other points along the line to assess. There is discussion of
national standards, not just state standards, and this isn't just
a local discussion.
Number 070
MR. GOTTSTEIN discussed poor business practices within the present
system. For example, we spend around $30 million on transportation
in Alaska, which is 3 percent of $1,150,000,000. That 3 percent
controls so many things in education. For example, it determines
where a child goes to school; a parent doesn't. He stated, "If
there are a variety of choices ... in a public setting, and unless
one has the time and the resources to transport a child, you have
no choice." Mr. Gottstein discussed a debate over boundaries in
the Anchorage school system; the chorus was about how many parents
would be forced to send their children to schools to which they'd
rather not send them, and that someone other than the parents would
make those decisions.
MR. GOTTSTEIN referred to talk about parents and the authority and
responsibility that we want to give children. He suggested we're
speaking out of two sides of our mouths, because if we believe that
is important, how can we say a 3 percent item will deny a parent
the privilege of deciding what school is best? He said almost all
parents will send their children to a school that is convenient,
free, and satisfies the need of the parents. This district in
particular, and others across the state, no longer offer public
school free, which involves an area of economics on which he
believes he has some expertise but which hasn't been well-debated.
Mr. Gottstein said by and large, parents have greater expectations
of their children than anybody else does. He asked, "How is it
that we diminish those expectations by depriving them of what they
think is right for their child? What, because of a 3 percent
item?"
Number 102
MR. GOTTSTEIN said one big debate in Alaska about funding is the
rural/urban debate. The 80 percent of the students who live in
urban Alaska receive 70 percent of the dollars, whereas the 20
percent living in rural Alaska receive 30 percent of the dollars.
The whole issue of disparity is over 10 percent, about $100
million. Nobody argues that it costs more to deliver education in
rural Alaska; the issue is how much and what is reasonable. Mr.
Gottstein said, "If you're simply talking input, you can argue
about half of that, or 5 percent, because it does cost more to
build buildings there. There are some economies of scale. Fuel is
more expensive there. It does cost more to bring a qualified
teacher or to employ a qualified teacher in rural Alaska, on
average. However, the scales aren't really so much higher because
their experience is less; the turnover is higher. So, in fact,
you're not really getting the benefit of it. So, you could argue,
say, `Well, we're going to take 5 percent, or $50 million, away
from rural Alaska, and we're going to spread it around the rest of
the urban area ... because it's fair.' Well, if you took that 5
percent and spread it around the urban areas, it would be wiped
away in 18 months of inflation."
MR. GOTTSTEIN said he doesn't think there is universal failure. He
believes most students are well-served, but far too many students
aren't being served and so we are compelled to do better; if we
don't, we'll create opportunities for the private schools to grow
at such pace that it will be at the expense of everybody else in
the public schools. Mr. Gottstein said, "What I'm afraid of is
that we're going to eliminate the purpose of public schools,
because it's to provide it for everybody. If you're simply looking
at input, then you could argue to take 5 percent away from rural
Alaska. But if you're looking at outputs, you can't, because we
know that the performance of the students in rural Alaska, compared
to the national average, is not acceptable. ... It's not acceptable
to the parents in those communities; it's not acceptable to those
communities; it's not acceptable to this community."
MR. GOTTSTEIN advised members that the student/teacher ratio is
better in rural Alaska than in the rest of the state. He said the
schools themselves are pathetic, and there is a lawsuit pending
that could make the mental health land lawsuit pale in comparison;
it will be a great constitutional debate unless this issue is
resolved. He indicated that if urban student/teacher ratio applied
in rural Alaska, performance would be worse. Mr. Gottstein asked,
"All for what? To delay really getting at the issue which are
fundamental to the problems in public school. In my judgment, it's
a diversion to talk about this. Now, the problem is we've got a
formula that isn't working. And if there's no more money and you
write a ... new formula, by definition, you've got winners and
losers; and there the politics are, okay? Well, I happen to
believe we have, maybe, a new opportunity to write a formula that's
rational, that puts the whole thing together, that encourages
rational decision-making, which I think does not exist in much
fashion in the current model."
Number 140
MR. GOTTSTEIN referred to the recently raised tobacco tax, which is
supposed to go towards education. He said if we're truthful about
holding education harmless, we're not simply going to set aside
inflation, which is another issue. He stated, "Then, we can't just
say we're holding it harmless but just keep the foundation formula
harmless. We used to spend, about ten years ago, $150 million to
pay off debt service in the schools. We're now down to about $65
million, and in another five years, it's going to be $20 million.
Those savings, which used to be spent to help maintain and build
schools, have been taken away from education and have been used in
other parts of government."
MR. GOTTSTEIN continued, "I'm saying that is not holding education
harmless. Let's not go back to another $150 million. Let's just
start today and say, `As that debt service goes down, let's take
those savings and add it to the $35 million,' okay? And let's put
some money that we would spend on capital -- and I won't go into
the whole detail because it would take me some time, so I'll try to
capsulize this. If you really add some dollars that are there,
that we're really already spending on education, and you add the
tobacco tax on it, now you've got maybe $70 to $80 million more.
With that $70 to $80 million, we're going to put additional
responsibility, which is the school construction and maintenance.
We shouldn't be separating those issues; just like we live in our
households or we live in our businesses, you can't separate the
issues. We need to establish priorities, and where better to
establish those priorities than where the rubber meets the road,
where the people are going to be impacted by the decisions ... that
are being made."
MR. GOTTSTEIN suggested that if we simply took the money we are
really spending and added the $35 million estimated from the
tobacco tax, there is enough - with the proposed formula, he
believes - to give at least a little more to everybody, and
materially more to quite a few. Speaking for himself personally,
he said another important piece is the endowment, which he believes
can be a constructive mechanism. However, it could be done
correctly or incorrectly.
MR. GOTTSTEIN explained that he doesn't believe an endowment set
aside to pay for the operating budget is appropriate. First, it
doesn't pass any political test he's aware of, because for an
endowment that will protect the operating budget, $600-$700 million
worth of revenue must be produced, which requires $9-$10 billion.
Mr. Gottstein stated, "Now, if we're serious about it, we're going
to say the public is prepared to set aside half of the permanent
fund, in which all of those earnings are to be used to pay for
public schools." He said we can debate whether that is a good
business practice, but he thinks it is politically unachievable.
He'd rather use the endowment - if we produce one - to secure the
most "insecure" part of schools, the school buildings themselves.
Number 200
MR. GOTTSTEIN suggested if we took the $175 million currently in
the public school trust fund, and we took $100 million a year for
ten years and had a high-yield investment strategy that wasn't
required to produce income, at the end of ten years there would be
$2 billion. He stated, "Now, the bond experts across the country
say if you have $2 billion in the bank and you have a revenue
stream, part of the foundation formula in which the local
communities decide whether it's a dollar or ten dollars or a
hundred dollars, ... that the bond market requires recourse. They
require collateral, okay? That's what this $2 billion is about.
If we buy a home ... and we don't make the payments, the bank can
take it back and sell it to somebody else. Well, that can't happen
with school, because if the community doesn't pay for the schools,
who's going to buy it? So, bond dealers need to have a secondary
collateral."
MR. GOTTSTEIN said the traditional way across America is the full
faith and credit of a state, but we're not bonding statewide.
However, that doesn't mean there isn't another way to do it. Utah
and Texas have a similar fund; for every dollar in their endowment,
they can borrow two dollars, as long as the income stream supports
the payment of the debt. Mr. Gottstein said, "But we have about
$3-1/2 billion worth of schools in our state. Maybe we should have
about $4 billion, certainly maybe ten years from now. If we had
the $2 billion, that would meet the collateral test, okay?"
MR. GOTTSTEIN said we're not talking about setting aside $10
billion; we're talking about setting aside less than 1 percent of
the permanent fund for ten years. He stated, "And then if you've
got an aggressive yield strategy, then you've solved the capital
problem forever, unless we have an extraordinary inflation coupled
with an extraordinary increase in enrollment. But if you have a
reasonable increase in enrollment and not-outrageous inflation,
then the yield on that endowment will rise enough to meet the
student demand to build housing for the collateral piece. And, in
my judgment, at the end of the day - which is, to me, an argument,
again, against having an endowment for the operating budget - but
at the end of the day, what the legislature - a la the public -
appropriate for education, in total, is a reflection of the success
of schools."
MR. GOTTSTEIN indicated that while he agrees parents should be in
schools, whether to pay them is a different issue. With the Board
of Education, he has been working on a number of things that he
believes need to be done, including revamping teacher licensure;
setting standards against which to measure teachers; setting
standards against which schools can be measured, with an
accreditation process; and measuring the performance of all
students, so that parents, teachers, administrators, the community
and the state know how they are performing. He stated, "In my
judgment, if we don't understand how integral rewriting the
foundation formula will be to the success of all of these other
things, we're going to miss it, because we're not going to really
get into what are the things that we need to do, in terms of
business practices, so that we end up not only with efficiencies
but with ... a perception on the part of the public that they're
beginning to get their money's worth."
MR. GOTTSTEIN stated, "We just saw a report ... from the Department
of Education listing the salaries and compensations of every
superintendent in the state. It was ... one of a number of
reactions that we have to the Ed Gilley Adak case, because clearly,
there were abuses that took place. And if what he did was legal,
it shouldn't have been, okay? Now, ... one statement about those
salaries is that they don't really seem out of line. And I'd say,
given the experience that many of these people have, it isn't out
of line. But from my business background, you can't justify having
53 of them in those kinds of categories."
Number 242
MR. GOTTSTEIN closed by saying one of the huge business practices
we need to achieve is allowing people who are in the best positions
to make decisions to have the authority to do so. He stated, "And
in my judgment, by combining administrative functions -
transportation, food service, accounting, law, construction - with
academic services is not correct. Academic responsibility
primarily should be vested in the school, in which we measure the
students, teachers and school against standards. And
administrative functions should be handled by people who have
careers in those kinds of functions. And you don't need 53 of
them. You don't need 53 food service programs. You don't need 53
transportation programs. As a business person, I say that's a
pathetic business practice. It's not acceptable. It's not
acceptable to me; I can understand why it wouldn't be acceptable
... to the community. What's necessary is enough to make sure that
there are competing elements, ... so that best business practices
are required in order for those entities to succeed and to thrive.
Maybe that's 6; it isn't 53. Politically, maybe it's 12, okay?
But it isn't 53."
MR. GOTTSTEIN said we're not doing what we need to do; every child
in this state should have the opportunity, but many don't. If
we're going to get serious about giving all our children an
opportunity, we must get serious about what's going on, not just
resting our laurels on existing practices. We must get out of the
"box," find those best practices, and embark on them. Only by
doing so will we raise the confidence of the public to provide the
funds necessary to serve not only their own children but others as
well.
Number 269
CHAIRMAN BUNDE thanked Mr. Gottstein for saying eloquently what he
himself had said earlier: More money won't beget trust, but trust
will beget more money. He acknowledged that SSHB 148 is an
outgrowth of the work that the school board did "and two years of
work on your behalf," although it had been moved forward to the
legislative arena and tweaked some.
CHAIRMAN BUNDE also thanked Mr. Gottstein for bringing up the
endowment, and he expressed appreciation for the points he had
made. He said he wishes the people who are promoting it well, and
he hopes it does what they want it to do. He stated, "One of my
main concerns is that you create an endowment here and you think
that the general fund contribution will remain the same. And no,
they're going to be inverse: The greater the endowment, the less
the general fund contribution will be."
MR. GOTTSTEIN replied that he believes that's exactly right. He
said, "That's why you have to set half of the permanent fund aside
in order to solve the issue that you've addressed, because unless
the income is enough to satisfy the entire need, ... then you
haven't gotten into the area of debate. And as long as you haven't
solved the area of debate, it's in the legislature's hands."
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said in other states, where lotteries add to the
educational foundation, the only place that he knows of where that
has really worked is Georgia, where it was written into law that
the lottery will be additional money, not replacement money. That
has worked quite well.
MR. GOTTSTEIN said the referendum on the endowment isn't explicit
about whether it would be "operating or capital," although people
have opinions on it, of course. Personally, he believes an
endowment could be extraordinarily constructive if it could be used
for this capital issue, because clearly we have not dealt with the
capital needs, not only in rural Alaska but also in Anchorage.
"That's why we don't have computers, by the way," he commented. He
asked how it is that they can build schools but cannot buy
computers, "because we can build the schools and then not at the
expense of the student/teacher ratio, but if we buy computers, it's
at the expense of the student/teacher ratio, and it really isn't
much more complicated than that."
CHAIRMAN BUNDE, noting that it was nearly noon, asked whether
anyone else wished to testify. He specifically asked Mr. Earnhart,
who'd signed up, whether he wished to testify, but Mr. Earnhart
said given the time, he'd pass and would provide comments in
writing. Chairman Bunde thanked participants and expressed the
belief that collectively we can solve our problems.
Number 322
CHAIRMAN BUNDE asked Eddy Jeans whether the North Slope $27 million
contribution goes to education or to the general fund.
MR. JEANS said it goes to the school district operating fund.
CHAIRMAN BUNDE called an at-ease. (SSHB 148 was held over.)
MEDICAID REGULATIONS REGARDING FRAUD
TAPE 97-46, SIDE B
TAPE 97-47, SIDE A & B
SUMMARY OF INFORMATION
CHAIRMAN BUNDE reconvened the meeting at approximately 1 p.m.
PRESENT
Committee members present were Representatives Bunde and Kemplen.
Also attending: Joe Hayes, Researcher for Representative Brice,
via teleconference from Fairbanks.
BOB LABBE, Director, Division of Medical Assistance, Department of
Health and Social Services, discussed Medicaid regulations.
NANCY WELLER, Medical Assistance Administrator, Division of Medical
Assistance, Department of Health and Social Services, discussed
Medicaid regulations.
P.K. WILSON, Medical Assistance Administrator, Division of Medical
Assistance, Department of Health and Social Services, discussed
Medicaid regulations.
CAROLYN PHILLIPS testified on "non-quality home health care"
providers and services, agencies, medical personnel shortages, and
long-term patient and senior citizen neglect in the Kenai/Soldotna
area.
DORIS REYNOLDS testified on health care issues.
JIM JORDAN, Executive Director, Alaska State Medical Association,
testified on concerns of the physician community, including notice
provisions, audits and audit reports, and appeals relating to
overpayments.
COMMITTEE ACTION
The committee took no action.
ADJOURNMENT
The meeting adjourned at 2:25 p.m.
NOTE:
THE MEETING WAS RECORDED AND HANDWRITTEN LOG NOTES WERE TAKEN. A
COPY OF THE TAPE(S) AND LOG NOTES MAY BE OBTAINED BY CONTACTING THE
HOUSE RECORDS OFFICE AT 130 SEWARD STREET, SUITE 211, JUNEAU,
ALASKA 99801-1182, (907) 465-2214, AND AFTER ADJOURNMENT OF THE
SECOND SESSION OF THE TWENTIETH ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE, IN THE
LEGISLATIVE REFERENCE LIBRARY.
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